Where is the Line Drawn between Discipline and Child Abuse?

For those that have known me as a blogger since 2005, also know that this is one of the few topics that I discuss here. And I have … a lot if you look through my archives under crime, bullying, etc.

I feel that this is a passionate topic for most of us, and it usually winds up being the liberals vs conservatives and/or the atheists vs the believers – where I don’t see a relationship, but that’s where it goes. And then it comes down to a lot of name-calling, swear words, that serve no purpose in the debate but to humiliate one for their views.

So, I approach the most daring topic! This one, at least for me, is what I consider a “touchy topic” more so than the abortion debate, the prayer in schools debate, the illegal immigration debate, and the list goes on.

Some reading this will know that I’ve been peering into other blogs, and found this being discussed! You’re right. I have an opinion on this too. I hope that this can be intelligently discussed. I will do my part as well to respect the opinions of others. Keep in mind, that there’s a big difference between a liberal and a leftist elitist. I’m not the later… at all. So, don’t shake my crib too hard, ya hear?

These are just opinions, anyway – and there’s no harm intended.

The reason why this debate is so hot-headed (my self-included) is because no line is drawn as to what “discipline” is as opposed to what “abuse” is. We’ve drawn these lines between marital partners and between friends, right? But not when it comes to children.

This is a debate that, unlike popular belief, has A LOT of gray areas. There’s no black and white… as least the way I see it.

Let me first just start out with the many questions I want people to ask themselves. You don’t have to answer them here.

- What is discipline? EVERYONE who spanks, beats or whatever… calls it “discipline”. This is true!

- How do we spank? How hard is too hard? Should the panties be up or down? What part of the body do we recommend? What instrument do we use? Is it only abuse when our instruments leave a mark? Do marks indicate more pain? Which is child abuse – which is discipline?

- What calls for it? What did the child do to deserve the spanking? Did he spill a glass of milk? Did she interrupt mommy while she was talking to daddy? Did he pee on the kitchen table or scream in the store to get his way?

- Why are the noisy brats that run around aimlessly in restaurants and inside planes automatically associated with the ” modern liberal no spank society” when we cannot see what actually happens in the home? How do we know that these parents aren’t just putting up a “project no spank” facade only because they’re in public? Heck, my mom showed one face in public and another one in the home.

- Are parents telling their children WHY they’re getting physically punished? Or are these parents assuming that the child is fully understanding what is going on?

- Does spanking provide TRUE strength for men or does it just turn them into guys like these?

- What is “being spoiled”? How do we determine what spoils a child? The term “being spoiled” can mean two totally different things:

1. The child is spoiled because everything they ask for, they get. “Mommy mommy, please buy me…” “Well, sure honey….”
2. The child is spoiled because from “too much” love and affection? Sure this can go to an extreme. But we all must come to some agreement here that a child needs comforting words and touch, encouragement, support, and feel safe and secure in their own home (you know the basic emotional stuff). No?

- Are a child’s feelings any less important because they’re a child, don’t pay bills, don’t know “true misery and heart break”, don’t have to work yada yada yada? I will tell you from my own personal experience that being an adult rocks! The best years of my life were my adult years. So, if any toddlers are listening, don’t pay attention to the hype. Being an adult ain’t so bad.

- Is child research and child-psychology a myth or a liberal “agenda”?

- The Freedom of Speech debate is often thrown into this topic by the “spankers”. Why? Conservatives claim that by the government ruling a “no spank” regime, they are taking away freedom of speech in the home and therefore “fascists”. But what about those people in Alabama that want to masturbate with dildos? What about companies dictating no smoking in the home because it makes insurance too expensive? Why can’t I smoke a joint in my own home when studies show that alcohol has a worse effect on my brain and temperament? There are liberals who feel, just as well, that the government is invading their freedom of speech too. It works both ways.

- Are you going according to your natural instinct to spank or are you literally going against your will to spank your child for their benefit?

- As a parent, do you ever admit to any wrongs? Do you feel there is room for improvement? Are you open to different styles of parenting? How do you feel when something new is placed on the table – new research development? Or do you just feel that all things coming out of a liberal’s mouth is incorrect by default? Have you ever taken the time to thoroughly research this topic looking at both sides fairly? Do you agree with medical advancements? If so, why do you disagree with any advancements in parenting or child psychology? What’s the difference between a medical advancement and a psychological one? At the end of the day, aren’t they both one in the same? Don’t they both affect each other?

- Do you feel that when a child or adult smiles that they are genuinely happy?

- Why can’t we hit adults or other’s children we don’t know outside school? Some will argue that we must spank kids at certain ages because at that time, they’re growing and need to learn right from wrong. My husband thinks that I misbehave sometimes, but if he strikes me, he can get into trouble for that, no? – especially if he hits me in public! If your child starts to annoy me at the dinner table talking way too loudly, and my hand just happens to be quicker than yours, can I whack him across the face? Can I do the same to your husband, brother, sister, mother, father etc if I feel they’re misbehaving? Is misconduct only specific to children? Is the necessity to learn proper conduct only specific to children? Should employers spank their employees? What about prison inmates?

- Do you ever stop to analyze why a a child is acting a certain way or even ask them to explain? Do you always feel that a child manipulates EVERY SITUATION to get their way?

- Do you believe that such things as “denial” and “repression” exist or is this more made up bologna from the liberals?

- What distinguishes one who can come out of a spanking home successful vs one who is non-successful in life?

What is “successful”, anyway? Having more money, two dogs, a good job, a Yale graduate, two cars, and mauve window blinds or being happy just getting by from day to day?

The successful ones were spanked and the non-successful ones were abused?

(Keep in mind again, EVERYONE calls what they do to their kids, “discipline”. EVERYONE! We NEVER get a chance to see for ourselves what ACTUALLY happens (!!) behind closed doors!)

- How do you feel after you spank the subject? Relieved, shaky, guilty, refreshed, like a good mommy/daddy?

- Why do both sets of parents on both sides say what they do works? Who’s lying? Who has a reason to lie? Is there such a thing as “trauma-bonding/Stockholm Syndrome” or do kids honestly say how they feel no matter how humiliating, scary and painful? Are adults always honest about their past?

- Should a child learn out of fear? If he learns something out of fear, is he/she really learning? Do you believe in such a thing to be able to learn a right from a wrong without fear? Is it even possible?

- Why do we sometimes sit in confusion when there’s a major shooting in a school, a mass murder, or serial killings? Is Criminology just more “liberal rhetoric” devised to take freedom from conservatives?

- Why do the conservatives blame crime and suicide on “not enough spankings”?

- Why do the liberals blame crime and suicide on “too many spankings”?

- Why do we think that crime and suicide is a “modern-day-trend” when it truly dates back to ancient times!!??

- Why is this such an emotional topic for most people? No. Really.

- Just because your parents did it, does that make it right? If it feels good, does it mean it’s right?

- Are parents … just because they’re parents exempt from any criticism because … they are parents? Should we just be thankful that they fed us, gave us a roof over our heads, clothed us, and anything else goes!?

- How do you judge your success in life – by your own parent’s doing or by your being able to think independently from them or a little bit of both?

- When someone says that they’ve never been spanked, do you believe them?

(Of course, we still have to determine “what is spanking”, and also consider “denial” + “repression” (understanding how dynamic this is in regards to survival) and be open to the fact that unless we’ve seen it for ourselves, we don’t know what happened in anybody’s home….ever!)

Is this person below just being a baby?

Let me tell you that I remember vividly getting spanked. My dad was ‘old fashioned’ and threw us across his lap, pulled down our pants and underwear. As a child I was petrified. Some would say well behaved b/c I didn’t even speak around my dad. I found it beyond humiliating and felt helpless. Even then I knew it was way overboard for teaching me not to do something. As an adult it makes me sick. It is very violating, particularly for a girl. And..no surprise..I like sex on the violent side. Psychologists could have a field day. Now when I see a child get spanked or hear a child get ‘warned’ it makes my stomach turn. Perhaps that is the key- a quick swat on the butt is one thing, but being held down, being violated by having your pants/underwear forced to be removed just to get the pain factor up a bit is sick and very detrimental. I am one adult that lives with those bad memories daily.

I actually wrote about this topic a few years back: the connection between being violated and wanted to relive this as an adult.

- Do people just talk about wanting a free country only when it suits them?

- Is it a coincidence that the crime rate is higher where corporal punishment exists?

OK. I’m done with the questions!

Some random thoughts I have on this topic:

In my opinion, time outs are unsuccessful when they are, because THE KID IS IN THEIR ROOM WITH TOYS, VIDEO GAMES ETC!!

There’s research all over the internet with actual PARENTS using non-violent means to raise their children with success. So, they say. I didn’t watch it happen, so….. I don’t claim to be a professional on this topic, either.

People say verbal abuse is WORSE than physical abuse. Really? I say that physical abuse IS verbal abuse – it’s action speaking LOUDER than words! Again, we have to define “what is abuse” because that’s going to be the core of this whole argument.

I don’t think liberals like being told how to raise their kids, either!! But we all have our opinions, right? It’s not like either one of our camps are enforcing our beliefs down the throats of others although secretly we’d like to. We both feel right. No doubt about that. We both have our fair share of “how dare you’s” to be tossed about. This topic is emotional for a very good reason. It hits us all V-E-R-Y close to home.

Some related links:

• This really blows my mind
• Stop hitting.com (links galore on this topic)
• No evidence of long-term benefit from spanking
• More on true child abuse vs discipline

As a child abuse survivor myself, this is with no intention to belittle those who too have been abused. And no! I don’t consider a pat on the hiney “abuse”!! But I will argue that there are “degrees” or “levels” of abuse. We could all sit here and discuss our child life and past abuses, but that won’t solve anything at all. Why? Because then it will be a debate about who had it the worst, and when the conversation goes in THAT direction, it’s already ended. It’s stupid. Pain cannot be measured or compared. Let me give an example that’s already been over-done and tired: *yawns*

Person A says: “My mom used to light a match to each of my fingers for coming home from school late, so as an adult, I’m bla bla bla……..”

Person B replies: “That’s belittling true child abuse because when I was little, my mom set fire to both my legs, so as an adult, I’m bla bla bla…..”

We can agree that both of these experiences are horrific to some degree or another – even though it has nothing to do with spanking. All I’m saying is that we will ALWAYS, in our lives, find people who’ve had it worse and better! Child abuse is not a black and white topic as it’s very broad and covers many ranges – just as the word, “crime” has its degrees from petty theft to rape and murder.

Before anybody accuses me of trying to get a “no spank project” legislated in the United States, I tell you now, that I have not voted on this issue, I have not demonstrated, I have not picketed, I have not written to congress, or tried to take these “freedoms” away from you.

I don’t believe this issue has to do with freedom of speech, anyway.

I would be curious what you all think of this.

From “The Men They Will Become”
Eli H. Newberger, M.D.

Chapter 6 – Discipline and Punishment

Men can lead perfectly honorable lives based on observing norms of behavior they have learned from others and that are promoted by, others – by their families or communities, or by their professions or the religions or philosophies they adhere to. But there is always a question of how men will behave in a situation beyond the direct influence of those institutions. Some individuals revert to behavior that is unworthy of their usual standards when they believe they can get away with it. Others, however, have deeper resources that enable them to remain consistent with their publicly scrutinized behavior. They have internalized values; their self-disciplined behavior doesn’t depend on anyone’s reminding them what the rules are.

Perhaps there is no more confused subject in childcare than the issues that swirl around discipline and punishment. In relation to character development, the word “discipline” has acquired several different meanings. As used most broadly, it connotes training, which corrects, molds, strengthens, or perfects – in other words, character formation itself, particularly as it is guided from without by a parent or mentor. (”Discipline” and “disciple” have the same root.) The word is also a synonym for punishment or chastisement – he was disciplined by being denied permission to play outside. Still another usage points to the control gained by enforcing obedience, the control implied, for example, in the phrase, “military discipline.” Finally, the term can refer to rules or systems of rules that are meant to affect conduct. Except when used with the prefix “self,” all of these meanings point to something that is imposed on a boy from outside and that relies heavily on rules of conduct.

You can read the rest here.

Is spanking a biblical duty? Read here.

And Most importantly….

Spanking a child in the US is not violating ANY law by any means… AT ALL. So, why is the spanking crowd so worried about being called by Child Protective Services? Can’t you just defend yourselves by saying that you use spanking as a means to discipline? Wouldn’t that be the end of it? What about out in public? So what if someone sees you spanking your child? Why would you care? Let the “loony lib” call the police. How far can they really go considering that you “have done nothing wrong”?

To conclude, so long as people stay in the dark (whatever that means for you) regarding child rearing, the violence in the US will never stop. Is this to imply that everyone subjected to physical “tough love” growing up are going to be violent as adults? Nope. It IS to say, however, that …. isn’t funny how every violent crime committed or suicide involves a person from a violent background? And we know this didn’t come from taps on the hiney-bump because the child must feel the pain in order to learn, right?

In my opinion, I believe you just have to look at where in MODERN society there is less crime and less obesity and measure that with their corporal punishment laws, and you’ll get the answer.

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